Eh... Apple hyped to much!!!!!!!!!!

ok manic. i can see part of that arguement. i think there is more opportunity for certain pc's to be more customizable - probably most of today's modern tower designs. and for people like you who get into that and enjoy it, that is certainly one advantage that pc construction has. on the other hand i believe the mac towers offer quite a bit of opportunity for this as well. perhaps not as much, but with a well thought out original purchase, not near as much will need to be changed that rapidly. of course that holds for pc's as well.
but you can look at my signature and see that the 'limitations' of an all in one computer have not stopped me from building the system i want. and yes i bitch to myself everytime i go into a computer store and see the 'made for mac version' of something selling at a higher price. but often if i look around a little, as you must do to build your own system, i can find it at a reasonable price.
so you keep the case and spend money on replacing parts. i keep the main unit and spend money on add ons. some, hopefully most, of the add ons should be as useful with my next mac as they are today. the real beauty of both firewire and usb is that you don't need to have all sorts of expandability built into the case. a couple of ports of each and your ready to hub and chain anything you want onto your system. all i've done to the original unit is add ram. and it works almost as good as the new 600mhz imac my gf just got in july. i don't expect to need a new mac for another few years at least. i have been thinking about a new one because i would like to get my son one. it makes more sense for me to buy a better one and give him mine than to buy him a used one that costs almost as much as a new one.
the other thing that i seem to be hearing is that you feel apple is ripping its customers off by developing new and better technology too quickly. this puzzles me. why would i feel bad that the line of computers i enjoy are rushing into the future at breakneck speed? Hell, i'd be pleased as punch if next week they came up with something ten times better than we have now and it made everything obsolete.I really hope they make the imac G4 obsolete in record time. that won't happen, but still i can dream.:cool:
it's funny you shuld bring game consoles into this (i'm also a nintendo man). the only real absolute advantage that i have ever seen to using a pc is the vast array of games available for it. having a mac, the only reason i would need one would be to play games. but that's what the game console is for. there is no computer i've ever seen that plays games as well as a game console. ( now my son thinks sega is the best - nintendo is ok, but any real gamer uses sega:p )
btw - you've got to admit that blingbling made a very good presentation in his rebutal.:)
 
If I remember correctly, one of the IMACs advantages were less wires and more simplicity, yet now you talking about expanding your IMAC with USB, firewire, Hubs, speakers that will all take space on your desk and add alot of wiring.

I do think Mac is ripping it's customers because most hardware in a Mac comes from apple itself. So why put such a high price tag on a low end solution as the new IMAC? Most PC hardware aren't proprietary to the vendors, and PC are much cheaper. If only Apple would lower its prices it could double it's income in no time.

Also, I don't like rushing technology cause most of the time, new technology needs worldwide support or it turns into a flop, so I don't like to rush into the store and buy the newest thing. Also, the new IMAC is nothing revolutionary and jaw breaking, it's a matter of space managment. That isn't something new.

There is this new PC out, it's the size of my hand and has a 1 GHZ P3.

I compared Macs to consoles not because of software, as in playing games, I meant that Macs has the same kind of restrictions as gaming consoles. There small, compact and you are limited in upgrades, plus once you chance your console, you have to buy new software, like for example all new G4s come with Mac OS X.


BTW, how dare you say that copycat SEGA is for real gamers, Nintendo is the one who started it all, Nintendo is the leader of creativity in the gaming business, Nintendo has its games in the 100 best games in our history. Nintendo will be successful always becuase of its first party titles. Where is SEGA now? Dead in the console business, now making games for the new consoles, mostly for the NINTENDO GAMECUBE which uses btw a custom G4 chip.
 
Manic brings up the point that the iMac is not upgradeable, which is true to some extent from a hardware perspective, but you can upgrade the OS. On many "consumer" model PCs, the hardware is built so specific to the OS you request on purchase (ME, for example) that you are never able to upgrade the OS. Some OS's like 2000 and NT 4.0 are better about this, but the same market the iMac tries to hit would most likely order ME for their PC. So, in short, PCs are no better and in fact worse in this respect.
 
I have to disagree. Why wouldn't you be able to upgrade the OS on a PC? Most hardware which is still supported by the companies has drivers for all existing OSes, in case of some companies even Linux drivers. It is not better as an iMac, but also not worse. Of course you have to get all those drivers once you wish to change the OS, which then again comes down to the well-known fact that Macs are more user-friendly in this regard since you don't have to hunt-down all drivers you need. (the only exception is when you go from OS 9 to X, but within the classic OS or within X, it is no hassle to upgrade).
 
drooled by ManicDVLN
You can't do that with a MAC, you just have to buy a new one to run new apps.

And frankly Macs seem to be at change OVERALL quickly than PCS.
Click to expand...

Funny, I don’t seem to be having that type of problem. I still use a 1994 PowerMac 7100 on a daily basis. I have made a number of upgrades over the years, and it runs photoshop great, I still do video and audio editing on it. And It runs both Windows 95 and 98 great in VPC (and better than any 1994 PC I've seen). I have a stock (no upgrades at all) Quadra 950 running MacOS 8.1 that is used for an application server, CD burner, and page layouts (it has three 21” monitors attached, so I can have up to 6 pages displayed at once), and it is 10 years old.

As for Mac OS X, the first G3 systems were released 5 years ago, so a 5 year old system can still be use to run it (not to mention the fact that you can upgrade 1995 PowerMacs to run it also).

As stated before, the mother board is really the only part that is APPLE MADE, but considering that they usually come with extras (on board video compression for the 95-97 PowerMacs, built-in ethernet on most systems after 1991), you get more and have to hunt down fewer drivers.

But you see, you don’t have ANY Macintosh experience. That is why you have such a poor argument. I own three PCs, work on them for a living, own a copy of almost every Windows version from Windows 1.0 to 2000 Pro. I can at least speak from experience about anything to do with PCs (or most any other platform for that matter). The problem is that YOU are never going to know anything about a platform which you argue against. And because no one is forcing you TO use that platform, you have no real motivation to argue in the first place.
 
ManicDVNL, in fact all macs ARE upgradable. They're just not built for it. I have one of the first iMac models, and upgrading the HD and putting more RAM in it wasn't hard at all. And replacing the processor with a G4 is also possible.
I don't know if it's possible to change the processor in the new models, though. But, remember, as long as computer is just assembled with screws, it's always possible to upgrade it ;)

And no, nothing in the macs exept from the casing and the motherboards comes from Apple. Do you think they own a HD manufacturer? Or a RAM fabric? No, I don't think so. I fully understand the price tag of the new iMacs, and that's exactly why they're still selling the old iMac and didn't stop manufacturing is two months ago.
Just imagine;
1 800 MHz G4 processor
1 60 GB HD
1 15" LCD display
1 256 MB SO-DIMM chip
Just that costs more than a PC costs to manufacture, got it?
And, then the DESIGN, motherboard, keyboard/mouse, speakers etc comes on top pf that. 1299-1799 $ is NOTHING for such a computer. Trust me. And it's quality. And it's Apple. Remember, immedeately after Apple started licecing Mac OS in the middle 90's, the macs started looking like PCs, and they were dirt cheap, just like PCs (ugh), still they didn't sell.
 
I think ksv hit a good point.

While not all components are made by Apple they certainly pick a component that is tried and true to work well. Here's some examples of why that's a good idea.

Do you remember Compaq's problem with the Quantum "bigfoots"? Turns out Compaq decided to make an impulse decision. It cost them heavily. I was working in a computer service department and watched the same model series come in one after another with the same problem. "My files just kept disappearing!?" Turns out after about 2 months of Compaq refusing that a problem existed they finally decided to fess up, and sent out all new Western Digital drives. The Quantum drives were not tested longer than 6 months, and as it turned out after 6 months the motor that moved the head armeture back and forth burned out "erasing" (in laymans terms) the data. It was all still there, but you had to send the drive out to a data recovery place. Funny, turns out Apple's been using Western Digital for quite some time. (A lot less than IBM though) This leads me to a therory on why Apple's may cost so much. To keep a hard drive in an R&D department for six months under regular testing methods must cost a considerable amount more than just a one month trial period. You would think Quantum would do this testing, but then again, you can never, ever figure out all the different hardware configurations that people may have. Which leads me to my next example.

I had gone to a computer show with $2000 cash. I knew what components were good at the time, and had high ratings of quality, speed, and all that. I cannot even begin to tell you the components because I just don't remember, but I was able to get everything I needed for $2300. (oops, well there goes the budget) I started to use the machine, and everything went swell. Then one day the machine didn't work, ok. So I start testing. Turns out the motherboard had fractures in the sauder lines. Poor quality. Whatever, I'll just get another. Got another. That lasts 1 year, and the CMOS battery dies. Well, that was certainly shorter life than it should be, but oh well. Turns out in the end I was switching parts faster than most people change socks. (Of course that's relative depending on the person reading the post ;) ) As I was changing parts I constantly had to dance around with drivers, conflics, etc. This by the way was over the course of 5 years, so it's not like I had a lemon, it just got annoying. The endless configurations ended up being the downfall of the machine. During this whole time my PowerMac G3 ran clean, smooth and without falter even when a new video card was put in, a new HD, and new RAM. Those were only for upgrade purposes. The components never broke, and the Mac was used as much as the PC. So, in my case, and in my opinion it seems that Apple focuses on keeping quality high by picking the best components and limiting what can be placed inside their boxes to keep configuration variances to a minimum. Once you keep variations down, suddenly troubleshooting becomes a breeze. Anyone who has put a third party component on their Mac logic board, and tries to get service from Apple can attest that they will just drop you. That's not them being arrogant it's just they don't know how to support that new component anymore than Microsoft knows how to fix your Creative SoundBlaster Platinum.

I think just one problem with Apple not getting more sales isn't that the box isn't configurable. If you like constant tweaks, and getting better and better lego pieces (awesome analogy Manic) then the PC is for you. If you want a machine that will just sit there and work, and new components don't float your boat, well... Most of us have made that decision. ;)

I don't mind paying a little more knowing that I'm getting a computer that will be rock solid for 5 years. Although the new software thing is a kick in the butt I feel the capital investment is worth it. By the end of 5 years with my capital investment of $2300 I ended up spending another $3500 (remember the motherboard!) Total $5800. New mac G4 which will last 5 years? $3,499.00 for the "Utlimate"

In my mind I would rather an Apple. When I can afford both a Mac and a PC (a PC that I can play with that is) I will definately get a PC as I like upgrading and tweaking. It seems that the "toy" argument has been reversed. ;)
 
BTW, how dare you say that copycat SEGA is for real gamers, Nintendo is the one who started it all, Nintendo is the leader of creativity in the gaming business, Nintendo has its games in the 100 best games in our history. Nintendo will be successful always becuase of its first party titles. Where is SEGA now? Dead in the console business, now making games for the new consoles, mostly for the NINTENDO GAMECUBE which uses btw a custom G4 chip.
Click to expand...

lol lol lol lol lol please somebody make me stop laughing before i start crying!!!!

this is the reason i don't like microsoft!!!!! back when you were just a wee kid and not concerned about computers, i bought my first mac. at the time there was no windows. then Billy Gates "copycated" the apple gui and now all these years later people like you are singing its praises!! oh, the irony of your statement.:rolleyes:


btw - i never said anything about sega being better. i said my 12 yo son thinks so. and just like you don't care that your M$ ripped off apple, he doesn't care that sega ripped off nintendo. lol

i think others have made good enough replies to the rest of your arguments except to say that i am glad apple is pushing technology development at a rapid pace. let it fly!! i don't mind my current setup going obsolete if what we get in return are better products. (and without needing to rehash the meaning of better - it is pretty obvious that most mac owners have made an informed personal decision that macs are better for them for a variety of reasons)
 
Originally posted by Ed Spruiell
btw - you've got to admit that blingbling made a very good presentation in his rebutal.:)
Click to expand...

i didn't think i did SO great of a job that ed would praise it! :D thanks for the comment!

and manic, we enjoy you being here, but I suggest you should really try out the product for a while (2-4 months) before you start to critisize it... I did for XP, didn't like it, formatted (XP screwed up when I chose "Uninstall XP and revert to former operating system") and am now a converted PC to Mac user...

I think we should take my friend's Original Revision D 333 MHz iMac, upgrade as much as we can (HDD, RAM, OS, Processor, etc.), put on a non-translucent beige plastic overcoat, re-name it "manicMac", ship it to Manic with a note on it saying "Not upgradable? HA! Check this out!" ...but that's only a suggestion, although it seems like a good one...

and also...
"NINTENDO GAMECUBE which uses btw a custom G4 chip."
I wonder why Nintendo chose to use a G4 in it's gaming system... could it be because it's more POWERFUL than a custom 700+ MHz Intel included in the XBOX (and I own an XBOX, but I didn't like the FEATURES of the GameCube [i.e. no DVD playback])
 
I find it interesting that most here being apple hardcore fans are the only ones who are having immense problems with PC hardware and software.

I never had big problems with PC's that I couldn't fix... If I take the argument that Macs are for people who jsut want things to work and don't want to go into complex hardware configuration and software drivers, then how can most of you criticize a PC when you are in need of "PC for dummies"booklet.

Second of all, the argument that macs are also upgradeable is totally misleading. Yeah you can add ram and a Network card, so can you ON THE NINTENDO GAMECUBE! Does that mean it's upgradeable to the form of a PC? Can you use an old Mac video card or processor and add it to a new Mac line? OR vice versa? Can you take apart your mac and sell the parts you don't need? Or buy NEW ESSENTIEL parts like MBs, Processor...? No, unless you are working for anandtech or Tomshardware, it's too COMPLEX for the less AVERAGE joe MAC user. since macs for for simple minded folks.

Third, and this one is for ED.

I am not making myself a hypcorite as you claim me to be with my argument with Nintendo being better than SEGA. Since Nintendo is still SUCCESSFUL in gaming consoles, which SEGA failed in.

On the other hand,

MS who took the CONCEPT of apple OS, not copycated it was more sucessful than AppleOS. If it did copycat, there would be no difference in MS OSes against MacOSes. The thing is here that, MS WIN95, WIN98, WIN2K, WINXP were all BIG HITS, selling off millions versus Mac OSes which were immensly buggy, had bad support and frankly were not easy to use. If you claim they weren't, Apple would have held the 95% marketshare right now.

Also, I made a little comparison between how much a new "IMAC" style PC would cost for a PC vendor with the same IMAC configuration versus the new IMAC.

New Imac

700MHz PowerPC G4
256K L2 cache @ 700 MHz
128MB SDRAM
40GB Ultra ATA drive
10/100BASE-T Ethernet
56K internal modem
Apple Keyboard
Apple Pro Mouse
32X CDROM

15'' Apple LCD

Cost = 1299$ US

Low end PC

Active TFT (XGA) 1024x768 LCD Monitor, DPMS, OSD 15'' 268$
Duron 1.2GHZ 72$
FIC KT133 MB 35$
128MB DDR RAM 20$
Windows XP Home 78$
40GB Maxtor HD Ultra ATA 100 68$
NVIDIA GeForce2 GTS w/32MB DDR graphics 62$
Logitech Keyboard & Mouse Freedom Pro 72$
SB Live 5.1 25$
Atx case w/ 300watt power supply 8$
100mbit network card 3$
56k Modem V.92 8$
56X CDROM 18$

Another advantage of PCs, you can exactly know how much each PC hardware parts value is in the market.

Cost = 737$ US AND THESE ARE RETAIL PRICES!

So if a PC vendor who has no proprietary on hardware would buy these parts AT WHOLESALE price which would be half of the retail 737$ cost would be like 300$ to make.

Aesthetics you say? Fine, add another 200$ for computer/LCD integration lets say... you get 500$ wholesale in theory.

Plus this computer i just put together is FASTER than new IMAC lamp.

So you guys tell me WHY IS IT SOOO EXPENSIVE? Not only that, it's licensed hardware and some of it prioprietary to APPLE! which SHOULD make the cost EVEN LESS!

You blame it on R&D? Gamecube was R&D for 4 years with the latest technologies in it for full power and its size is like smaller than the G4 cube, AND ITS ONLY 199$ CHEAPER THAN ALL OTHER CONSOLES!

SO NOW YOU TELL ME, YOU TELL ME WHY APPLE HAS SUCH A HIGH PRICE TAG! COMMON GUYS, ADMIT IT, Steve is getting too greedy!
 
Active TFT (XGA) 1024x768 LCD Monitor, DPMS, OSD 15'' 268$
Duron 1.2GHZ 72$
FIC KT133 MB 35$
128MB DDR RAM 20$
Windows XP Home 78$
40GB Maxtor HD Ultra ATA 100 68$
NVIDIA GeForce2 GTS w/32MB DDR graphics 62$
Logitech Keyboard & Mouse Freedom Pro 72$
SB Live 5.1 25$
Atx case w/ 300watt power supply 8$
100mbit network card 3$
56k Modem V.92 8$
56X CDROM 18$

Where did you find those prices?! I found a good site and thought THEIR prices were cheap! Not by a long shot! i need to build a small PC for my sisters and I'm not giving this one away to them if I can build one for less...

and this is probably the only time you'll see me and manic on the same page...
 
Manic, you say that previous versions of MacOS were buggy. Certainly you are not saying that Win95, Win98, and the rest of the Windows versions were not buggy? Almost everyone I have ever met has complained about Windows (all versions, but less so with XP) being unstable, much more so than my old Macs. I had an old Apple IISi from '91 and it was solid as a rock.
 
aaronix_1668_1092377


why does it look like it has been designed from iMac styling? translucent blue, radical curves... hmm...
 
i'm sure everyone will agree that Computer Looks Awful... it looks really tacky! ...But Hey...it's a start! Who Wants a nice Beige Monitor, and PC Unit!?

hehe!
i love my black Setup...! :)

NeYo
 
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