usability

Originally posted by MacLuv
Actually I bet I can find more users that appreciate this feature than not. I used to hate it when I first started using windows, and now I miss it. If you think it's really bad, perhaps you should ask yourself why Apple adopted the toolbar on top of the finder windows, which basically is the same thing.

:rolleyes:

Okay I asked myself... and I still hate them. The Finder window toolbar serves a different purpose than the one in Windows and I find that I almost never use it anyway. Maybe in your own little world of users you can find people who like the Windows toolbars but I'll bet you that the vast majority of Mac users hate them.

MDA
 
Ok, well i'm 18 now, and since about 95', i've used Windows, and Come to learn this that and the other. But i saw OS X, liked what i saw, and well, jumped aboard!

But being, underlyingly, a "windows user", i often find things GUI wise, that seem weird or wrong, and i guess this is the right kinda time to point them out, and discuss!

Since purchasing my iBook, and picking up little things, and being able to use OS X "competently", i've found some cool things, i wished i had, had on my XP Machine! Personally, i think Aqua Looks Better (hence why PC Doesn't even have Luna!), but there are still many things within XP, i do Like!

1) Toolbars - I love on X, on how Customizable they are. You are free to drag and drop things in and out, Whereas, with XP, you always felt limited, and means to organise the toolbar was more complicated (not to say i couldn't do it, but it's by no means easy, by comparison) Being able to see the toolbar, in "Customize toolbar Mode" on X Seems So much more "user friendly" IMO. Whereas, in the shot on XP, you can see, it looks far from easy, upon first impression. You have Select the icon (+text), then use the up and down arrows, to shift the icon around, or add / delete it. Taking GUI design and such into consideration, i consider it bad design, that to move icons to the left of the Toolbar, you have to use the "Shift Up" Button? Somehow that doesn't make much sense really. Comparably, on X, you simply Click and Drag it left or right, not have to work out "if i do this, it'll *fingers crossed* go there".

customize_toolbar.jpg


2)Windows Media Player - Yes, i know Essentially its not "GUI Design" orientated, but i like where M$ are @ with it. Often you hear X users quoting within flame wars, how they can do "this, that and the other" without having iTunes open. Well, i don't know how many of you have XP up to date, or care to try BETA Stuff?! Windows Media Player 9, for me has brought the same kinda feature, integrated to the toolbar, that allows you to control you media, just like the Dock Popup with X. It Really intergrates well, and allows you:

Pause / Play
Stop (where, WHY isn't Stop apart of iTunes, unless you open an iTunes window, and select a playlist that is not playing?! that really bugs me! Can someone explain that?
Previous / Next Track
Volume
Mute (More handy than you realise, when its there!)
Also, Maximize (Because the Taskbar player comes into play, if you minimize WMP, and activate the taskbar player.)

When you're playing Media, a Popup window which is, not very optrusive in my opinion, pops up, and display Track information and such (i thought that was a neat little extra), and Also, if the Track is playing, or even paused, On Mouseover of the M$ Logo, it displays the track which is paused, in another little popup like window. (Screenshot Attached). As you can see, it fades in and out too! Pretty Cool, eh?!

media.jpg


3) Show in Groups. This is something i like, which i miss, in X. yes, if you switc to Detail view, you can do a sort by name, or by File type, etc. But, i find this, a far better way, (obviously in Windows, you can do the same Detail View Sort) because its far easier to read the files, often, you find in detail view, it seemed "Crammed" and it makes things hard to read. But with the feature, you can distinguish files within a directory, by First Name, Total Size, Comments, Type, and Free Space. This is a neat feature, that GUI wise, helps a user to not just find files, but to organize their files.

sortby.jpg


4)Recycle Bin - Why in Windows, is it on the DESKTOP, alone?! That Does bug me, i love having the bin there in the dock, allowing me to dump stuff from many sources EASILY. And Yet in Windows, i either have to minimize Windows, or a particular one, If i can remember where i last left the bin?! I'd like to see the Bin implemented into the taskbar, if they can implement the WMP App into it, i am sure this too will be done with the next Edition of Windows, it makes a Hell of a lotta sense to me! For me, the GUI of Windows means a lot, using X, and XP, i find it just, to modify things a lot, to fit the kind of enviroment i want, and luckily, Windows Does offer a lot of Customizing, which allows not only 3rd part Apps, to extend the way YOU work, but little inhouse "extra's" out of the box, or PowerToys. For me, i made a new toolbar, and have the Recycle Bin in the Taskbar, which does the job it should, but it bugs me, why M$ Decide to leave that on the desktop, and shift more commonly used links, ie "My Computer" Away from the desktop?! Maybe they Forgot?!

I had loads to write about, maybe i am going off on a slight tangent here, but i felt just to post in this discussion, because being natively a "Windows User", my opinions differ (i imagine!), from the majority around the place! Sorry if that i wrote wasn't exactly on topic, but it does validate some points and such, right?!

Neyo
 
Originally posted by MacLuv

And I can't stand the XP media player skins--they're terrible.

Yea, The Skins Do suck, and 7.1 and > skins are much like goldust, unlike Winamp. :rolleyes: But i cannot stand Winamp, i don't know why, i've just hated it! I've never really used WMP Before, but after using my iBook rather intensively, and then "returning home" to my XP machine, and also have the WMP 9 Beta, i like the Toolbar Intergration, and continued using it. it Plays mp3's well, and i Don't care for the skin @ all, it HARDLY ever moves from the toolbar, to a Skin or "Full View Mode" Anyhow. One thing, i cannot stand, is these STUPID Visualisations? Whats the Deal with it?! i DON'T want to look at my monitor while i SOLELY play music, if i am on my PC, i am on it for a purpose other than to listen to music (i have a stereo to do that! :rolleyes: ) So Why am i forced to have Visualisations, IF i have WMP in Skinned Mode?! If i am in the "Default View", i can switch to Album Art, luckily, but in Skin view, i cannot Disable it! I hate how they look, and they obviously DON'T do ya CPU usage any favours! :mad:

Referring back to the topic in hand, when i am using my iBook, i do find, Minimizing Windows on a Mac, Doesn't Seem right, like someone pointed out, Multiple minimized windows ONLY leads to confusion. But the hidden apps thing seems a pain too, there needs to be better intergration with that in my view. Often, after being a Windows User for a long time, i have a window open (in X) that i don't wish to close, but Simply "put aside" for a while, but in X, what is the best suggestion to do so. If i were to take notice of the Widgets, it'd obviously point to Minimize to the dock, but like "we" said, thats not always best in OUR eyes? Is it not possible for Apple to Swap the Minimize widget for Hide?! is it the general consensus, that this method, of getting rid of Application windows temporarily is the BEST way?!

Oh! And while i am here, Anyone know an answer, as to why "STOP" in iTunes is So ilusive?! Its the only media player that makes it so hard to find, why should i have to click onto an alternative playlist to get it to appear? Anything that uses' media, whether it be Home Entertainment DVD Units, Video's, CD Players, MD Decks etc, they ALL have STOP (...plain to see) As Do all the media software i have used, up until iTunes. Why?! :confused:

Neyo
 
Originally posted by ~~NeYo~~
Ok, well i'm 18 now, and since about 95', i've used Windows, and Come to learn this that and the other. But i saw OS X, liked what i saw, and well, jumped aboard!

But being, underlyingly, a "windows user", i often find things GUI wise, that seem weird or wrong, and i guess this is the right kinda time to point them out, and discuss!

Since purchasing my iBook, and picking up little things, and being able to use OS X "competently", i've found some cool things, i wished i had, had on my XP Machine! Personally, i think Aqua Looks Better (hence why PC Doesn't even have Luna!), but there are still many things within XP, i do Like!

1) Toolbars - I love on X, on how Customizable they are. You are free to drag and drop things in and out, Whereas, with XP, you always felt limited, and means to organise the toolbar was more complicated (not to say i couldn't do it, but it's by no means easy, by comparison) Being able to see the toolbar, in "Customize toolbar Mode" on X Seems So much more "user friendly" IMO. Whereas, in the shot on XP, you can see, it looks far from easy, upon first impression. You have Select the icon (+text), then use the up and down arrows, to shift the icon around, or add / delete it. Taking GUI design and such into consideration, i consider it bad design, that to move icons to the left of the Toolbar, you have to use the "Shift Up" Button? Somehow that doesn't make much sense really. Comparably, on X, you simply Click and Drag it left or right, not have to work out "if i do this, it'll *fingers crossed* go there".


2)Windows Media Player - Yes, i know Essentially its not "GUI Design" orientated, but i like where M$ are @ with it. Often you hear X users quoting within flame wars, how they can do "this, that and the other" without having iTunes open. Well, i don't know how many of you have XP up to date, or care to try BETA Stuff?! Windows Media Player 9, for me has brought the same kinda feature, integrated to the toolbar, that allows you to control you media, just like the Dock Popup with X. It Really intergrates well, and allows you:

Pause / Play
Stop (where, WHY isn't Stop apart of iTunes, unless you open an iTunes window, and select a playlist that is not playing?! that really bugs me! Can someone explain that?
Previous / Next Track
Volume
Mute (More handy than you realise, when its there!)
Also, Maximize (Because the Taskbar player comes into play, if you minimize WMP, and activate the taskbar player.)

When you're playing Media, a Popup window which is, not very optrusive in my opinion, pops up, and display Track information and such (i thought that was a neat little extra), and Also, if the Track is playing, or even paused, On Mouseover of the M$ Logo, it displays the track which is paused, in another little popup like window. (Screenshot Attached). As you can see, it fades in and out too! Pretty Cool, eh?!

3) Show in Groups. This is something i like, which i miss, in X. yes, if you switc to Detail view, you can do a sort by name, or by File type, etc. But, i find this, a far better way, (obviously in Windows, you can do the same Detail View Sort) because its far easier to read the files, often, you find in detail view, it seemed "Crammed" and it makes things hard to read. But with the feature, you can distinguish files within a directory, by First Name, Total Size, Comments, Type, and Free Space. This is a neat feature, that GUI wise, helps a user to not just find files, but to organize their files.

sortby.jpg


4)Recycle Bin - Why in Windows, is it on the DESKTOP, alone?! That Does bug me, i love having the bin there in the dock, allowing me to dump stuff from many sources EASILY. And Yet in Windows, i either have to minimize Windows, or a particular one, If i can remember where i last left the bin?! I'd like to see the Bin implemented into the taskbar, if they can implement the WMP App into it, i am sure this too will be done with the next Edition of Windows, it makes a Hell of a lotta sense to me! For me, the GUI of Windows means a lot, using X, and XP, i find it just, to modify things a lot, to fit the kind of enviroment i want, and luckily, Windows Does offer a lot of Customizing, which allows not only 3rd part Apps, to extend the way YOU work, but little inhouse "extra's" out of the box, or PowerToys. For me, i made a new toolbar, and have the Recycle Bin in the Taskbar, which does the job it should, but it bugs me, why M$ Decide to leave that on the desktop, and shift more commonly used links, ie "My Computer" Away from the desktop?! Maybe they Forgot?!

I had loads to write about, maybe i am going off on a slight tangent here, but i felt just to post in this discussion, because being natively a "Windows User", my opinions differ (i imagine!), from the majority around the place! Sorry if that i wrote wasn't exactly on topic, but it does validate some points and such, right?!

Neyo

I don't really understand how what you've shown is any better than this:
 

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Firstly, mine was FAR easier to Read! LOL, dude, that some mix of Colours there, NOT Good for ya eyes! :p
Secondly, my view is, its how you get to that same functionality that differs. In this instance, Customizing the File Setup for the window is EASIER, a Simply right click, which leads to a Contextual Menu, which offers MORE means of Data sort, that in X. Also, Windows adds in those dividers, which makes it easier to decify what label you are reading, this is VERY Helpful when you have a LOT of Files in that Directory! ie /Windows/System32/

Agreed?!

Neyo
 
Originally posted by MacLuv
Now you're just being stubborn. You're arguing for the sake of it.

So I'll elaborate for you.

The toolbar and the menu serve similar functions yet are presented to the user in different ways. The toolbar, for example, uses icons as aids to navigate through folders. The toolbar has also become a staple in the OSX diet, being used to customize favorite features in many applications such as the Help Viewer and MacJournal. Not unlike an application menubar, it is event-driven and therefore responds to an event-manager.

As Mac users become more adept at using a toolbar attached to their application window, it makes sense that the same users will develop usage patterns not unlike their Windows cousins. There is no justification nor proof that having a menubar affixed to the top of the screen is more "intuitive" or "user friendly" than having it attached to the application window it belongs to. Having menubars attached to the window follows the same logic as having error messages attached to the window they belong to. That sort of logic in itself follows the general conventions of object-orientated programming.

I would also like to point out that most of the Apple GUI guidelines were written for the original Macintosh and have yet to be changed. It's also important to remember that the original Macintosh had a 6 inch screen so putting a menubar at the top was a good idea at the time. Now I find with even my 17" monitor that moving the mouse up to the top of the screen just to access the menubar is not very "user friendly" at all, and having it attached to the window would save a great deal of time. One may think I'm nitpicking, but Steve Jobs once convinced the first Mac engineers to shorten the boot time of Macintosh by 5 seconds to save "years" of waiting time off the users life. It's a pitty he doesn't seem to think the same way anymore.

:cool:

Because you don't like what I have to say doesn't mean I being stubborn or arguing only for the sake of it. There are very detailed, well written, and thought out arguments describing why the user interface works so well in the Mac OS vs. Windows. If you don't wish to believe them that is your business. I've been using OS X since it's beta days and I have never used the Finder toolbars. I find that I'm more effiecient doing things in other ways. One thing I really do like in OS X are the sheets that appear when you save a document in an application that are attached to the document window. I don't believe Windows has anything like that, does it?

MDA
 
Originally posted by MDA
One thing I really do like in OS X are the sheets that appear when you save a document in an application that are attached to the document window. I don't believe Windows has anything like that, does it?

MDA

You right, Windows DOESN'T have them, and yet, i am Glad! Often, the File name can refer to the content within, and having a floating window means you can move the Save Window, and refer to the Content below. I've lost count, how many times i've had to Cancel Save, because the Dialog box is in the way of something! :rolleyes: I Like the Animations, that is cool, but in my opinion, i prefer the Floating window, of "Windows".

Neyo
 
Originally posted by ~~NeYo~~
Firstly, mine was FAR easier to Read! LOL, dude, that some mix of Colours there, NOT Good for ya eyes! :p
Secondly, my view is, its how you get to that same functionality that differs. In this instance, Customizing the File Setup for the window is EASIER, a Simply right click, which leads to a Contextual Menu, which offers MORE means of Data sort, that in X. Also, Windows adds in those dividers, which makes it easier to decify what label you are reading, this is VERY Helpful when you have a LOT of Files in that Directory! ie /Windows/System32/

Agreed?!

Neyo

Sorry I tried to make it pretty for you, oh well.
I do think OS X has a ways to go in this area but it is still a young and developing OS. You're right that XP gives you more sort options but one thing I don't like about Windows is the drive letter designation that OS X doesn't use. I also know that it used to be the case that CD's and floppies and other external media didn't mount on the desktop when they were inserted, a real pain. Has that changed?
Also what's with the letters beneath the groups? Don't think much of that.

MDA
 
Originally posted by ~~NeYo~~
You right, Windows DOESN'T have them, and yet, i am Glad! Often, the File name can refer to the content within, and having a floating window means you can move the Save Window, and refer to the Content below. I've lost count, how many times i've had to Cancel Save, because the Dialog box is in the way of something! :rolleyes: I Like the Animations, that is cool, but in my opinion, i prefer the Floating window, of "Windows".

Neyo

Okay how bout this. Why is Windows so bloody ugly compared to OS X?

MDA
 
Originally posted by MDA
Sorry I tried to make it pretty for you, oh well.
I do think OS X has a ways to go in this area but it is still a young and developing OS. You're right that XP gives you more sort options but one thing I don't like about Windows is the drive letter designation that OS X doesn't use. I also know that it used to be the case that CD's and floppies and other external media didn't mount on the desktop when they were inserted, a real pain. Has that changed?
Also what's with the letters beneath the groups? Don't think much of that.

MDA

You Don't Like Drive Letters?! Thats Cool, i mean opinions, and all. In a sense, it adds Simplicity, but at the same time, how would you refer to a drive?! i mean, if i am in an Explorer Window, sometimes, i may hit F4, and type "G:", and i am into my DVD Drive. How does that work on X?! Could you NOT Navigate to the Drive, without using the Mouse?! ...would it take a Tonne of Tabs? (can you tab through icons, and Apps enough to get there?) Just Curious mate, nothing personal!

As For the Sort by File Name thing, Check this out, (attached File). Sorting through a tonne of files is easy! You Don't have to work out when the last file beginning with D is, and where E begins, its broken down, and easier on the eye. I like it Far better, you can do the same as X, but this, in my opinion is an advantage for a user (especially, one who doesn't want to have to shell out for Glasses in 10 yrs Time! :p )

Neyo

Excuse the Blur in the jpg, i had to save in Photoshop @ Low (4) to getit below 100Kb
 

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Originally posted by MDA
Okay how bout this. Why is Windows so bloody ugly compared to OS X?

MDA

LOL! i Don't question that, we aren't talking that, After all, Beauty is MORE than Skin deep, Right? I Prefer X in many ways, but X is still a BABY!

:rolleyes:

NeYo

...Dude, i plan to sell my PC, for a iMac in the spring, and so am far from bill Gates' Son, its just even tho i will eventually "SWITCH", X is not the B-all, and End of things, its Progressing, and needs to take such ideas and such from "big brother" :D
 
Originally posted by MacLuv
MDA, one more thing, unless you're quoting a huge post to *bump* it and make a statement on the whole thing for emphasis, please use the {...} edit marks to tell us there's material edited for space... since we're on the subject of functionality it makes no sense for me to be scrolling through miles of posts just to get to your comments.

i'm glad someone other than me had the sense to say this!! Thank you MacLuv!! whiel there is no official rule against quoting an entire post for no good reason, it is certainly some of the worst forum ettiquitte around.

my 2 cents - as MacLuv pointed out earlier, many of the usability issues boil down to which platform you have been more trained on. I admit having much more training, and for a much longer period of time, on a mac. that being said, i was using my first mac within days to make money with as a desktop publishing setup. My first experiences with windows required me to contantly ask questions of others in order to do things as simple as open or save a file - for many weeks.

while mac and windows have both evolved from those early days, the trend has almost always been for windows to try and be more mac like and less dos like. so while i believe there are one or two things about windows that make better sense in a gui, i am wholeheartedly against the idea that an apple os should be altered to make it more windowslike simply to satisfy the switchers or people who use both platforms so that they have less differences to deal with. this would be selling out the mac faithful for the worst possible reasons. and a step backwards on top of that.

that's my opinion and no amount of arguing about it could change my mind.
 
Originally posted by MacLuv
Okay, this is what I was replying to:

In my book that doesn't really look like a "very detailed, well written, and thought out argument" on your part, so please, don't yank my chain.

That's great. I've been using Apple products for a very long time. If you've read my posts you'd see that I've been around computers for a very long time. Using OS X since it's beta release hardly qualifies you as an expert in the design, function, and usability requirements of a GUI. In fact, you've offered me no basis to why I should accept your opinions on the matter except this one--that you've been using OS X since it's beta release.

Exactly when did I claim I was an expert on the design function and usability requirements of a GUI? What I did say is that there have been numerous articles written by people who know far more than you do about the GUI and the end user experience. It wouldn't hurt you to read some of them. What you failed to understand from my reply is that by using OS X since it's beta release I've had ample time to adapt to it and have learned to work in it nearly as quickly and efficiently as I do in OS 9. It has never really occurred to me to use the toolbar in the Finder windows partly because I never really use Finder windows. I mostly navigate to files by using folder aliases from the dock. There still is a sluggish factor with OS X that I'm sure will be worked on in future releases.


Um, I'm not really sure what you're talking about here. Are you talking about the dialog boxes? I've already commented about those. Did you read my post or just scan over it?

It is quite possible that I missed your comment because you do tend to go on a bit.

MDA
 
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