usability
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Originally posted by ~~NeYo~~
Firstly, mine was FAR easier to Read! LOL, dude, that some mix of Colours there, NOT Good for ya eyes!
Secondly, my view is, its how you get to that same functionality that differs. In this instance, Customizing the File Setup for the window is EASIER, a Simply right click, which leads to a Contextual Menu, which offers MORE means of Data sort, that in X. Also, Windows adds in those dividers, which makes it easier to decify what label you are reading, this is VERY Helpful when you have a LOT of Files in that Directory! ie /Windows/System32/
Agreed?!
Neyo
I just jumped into XP using VPC to take a look at the group sorting and I've got to tell you that it doesn't do much for me. I'd rather view in a list or by column myself. This grouping feature just seems to make the list take up more room and take longer to scroll through. If I want to move to a file beginning with a specific letter I just type that letter and I go right to that section of the listing.
MDA
Actually yes, if I can find the bookmark I created for the site I will post it for you to visit. I found it to be fascinating reading.
If computer interface design were my forte I would write something about it. My expertise happens to be in Mac support since that's what I do for a living at an ad agency.
I'm sorry but I have an extremely hard time believing that. It seems to me that you would be better at this argument if that were true and that you would have more class about it.
I did join this discussion a bit late in the game and as a consequence missed a few hundred of your posts. The problem with this discussion is that we are both convinced we are right. It's like me trying to convince a republican that they are wrong, it's never going to happen.
46 just happens to be my age. I've been around computers a while myself.
MDA
Originally posted by MacLuv
Actually I bet I can find more users that appreciate this feature than not. I used to hate it when I first started using windows, and now I miss it. If you think it's really bad, perhaps you should ask yourself why Apple adopted the toolbar on top of the finder windows, which basically is the same thing.
I didn't want to quote your long post, so I just took one of your next ones.
First: NeXT has very much to do with what we're using today in Jaguar. (You said there isn't anything left in Mac OS X of NeXT.) The example of the toolbar is one of them. I don't know if you ever actually USED NeXT-STEP or OpenStep, but today's Finder is basically an evolution/combination of NeXT's Workspace application and parts/ideas of the classic Mac OS Finder.
You also claim that in order to make a User Interface useable, it has to be a 'standard' used by many people.
I don't know how you cound, but 5 million OS X users (even if the number is wrong that Apple puts out, which is likely, so let's say 2-3 million people) is a large number. OS X is also 'the standard' on Apple's Macintosh computers. It's quite useless to state that Apple only covers some 2-5% of the overall desktop computer market, because _if_ your statement has anything to say, you have to look at the actual numbers, not the percentage.
And: Only because so many people have learned to _use_ a bad UI design like the multiple toolbars in Windows and other MS' applications doesn't make it good UI design at all. It's only bad UI design that is ubiquitous.
Also, I don't like you to bash on me saying things like that you've been into computers forever without knowing what I've done with computers myself. I never called you someone who doesn't know anything about computers, but I've used datasettes myself and also have a history of knowing operating systems. I've not only followed the path from Macintosh System 3 to Mac OS X 10.x, I've also followed DOS 3.x through Windows XP and NeXT-STEP through Mac OS X 10.x. And then some. I have used Amigas (an Amiga 500 and a 2000, an Amiga 3000 at my uncle's place) and Atari ST (I've had a 1040 STf myself, coded for it in my days of youth).
But this thread is mainly about User Interface Design. And it's a simple truth that while everyone makes errors here, Microsoft is basically the creator of the list of errors in UI Design.
Remember those, don't know what they were called in English, dial-wheels we had on old telephones? They certainly weren't good UI Design, and I hope you agree here, but they did stick around for quite a long time. Of course, people learned to use them. Of course people were used to using them. Doesn't make it good UI Design, though. Same for Windows (or at least many, many parts of Windows).
kendall
Registered
Much of NeXT is left over in OS X. NetInfo, startup, login, logout, the Dock, toolbars, the spinning beach ball, the UNIX foundation, application packaging, install routines, etc.
There's probably 100 things I'm missing but you get the idea. If you've ever used NeXT or OpenStep extensively you should be right at home with OS X.
NeXT and OpenStep are awesome. I can't believe they're not still being developed for for the x86 platform. People whine about how they want OS X on Intel, well, its just not going to happen, but, if some good programers would have gotten behind OpenStep, Intel hardware could have something very similar to OS X today.
Anyway, NeXT and OpenStep rock!
There's probably 100 things I'm missing but you get the idea. If you've ever used NeXT or OpenStep extensively you should be right at home with OS X.
NeXT and OpenStep are awesome. I can't believe they're not still being developed for for the x86 platform. People whine about how they want OS X on Intel, well, its just not going to happen, but, if some good programers would have gotten behind OpenStep, Intel hardware could have something very similar to OS X today.
Anyway, NeXT and OpenStep rock!
Well OpenStep was NeXT's baby, and we all know that NeXT bought Apple, erhm... Apple bought NeXT.
But there's hope in form of GNUstep, although high-profile Cocoa developers and old OpenStep hats don't believe that the project will be in a usable and interchangeable state anytime soon. (Goal is to be able to use the same source for OS X and GNUstep applications. Works for some stuff, though...) -> http://www.gnustep.org ...
But there's hope in form of GNUstep, although high-profile Cocoa developers and old OpenStep hats don't believe that the project will be in a usable and interchangeable state anytime soon. (Goal is to be able to use the same source for OS X and GNUstep applications. Works for some stuff, though...) -> http://www.gnustep.org ...
kendall
Registered
GNUStep seems at a stand-still since 2001. OpenStep was much more usable on x86 than NeXT. They should have just continued where OpenStep left off. They would have been much farther ahead then they are now.
The release of OS X basically killed OpenStep. It just made no sense to me why people would develop for BeOS and not OpenStep. They are both dead now so I guess it doesn't matter.
The release of OS X basically killed OpenStep. It just made no sense to me why people would develop for BeOS and not OpenStep. They are both dead now so I guess it doesn't matter.
You're right, GNUstep is in development. There are two linux distros that want to create packages that provide a complete desktop environment. This would be cool, but then again, this appeals to linux developers more than to linux desktop users, as RedHat, SuSE, Caldera and others have created quite complete desktop linux solutions.
Here's something Apple has done right: System wide conventions. Clipboard, keyboard shortcuts, filetypes, etc. There was a question about where the stop button is in iTunes ... it's Apple-period. That's been the stop command forever. It was the first thing I thought of, and it worked as expected. It'll work in most good mac apps and wirtually any Apple designed app. The space bar toggles play/pause. That's intuitive for you. Not necessarily intuitive to the totally uninitiated, but intuitive to someone who has seen something similar before, and is likely to extrapolate. Why that command isn't listed in the Controls menu ... I have no idea.
The sheets thing, sweet in their association, bad in their flexibility. I think each sheet should have an "invisify" button on it so that you can see below it. Or maybe a detach button so you can make it float once you need it to.
Dock grouping: I simply don't minimize windows, but what if the windows hid under the app in the dock, and popped out on mouse-over like the name does so you could go straight to your window with mini icon, but it remained grouped to your app? ... Yeah, the dock doesn't scale very well.
That grouping thing in XP ... neat. But I'm not sold on its time saving functionality. It seems like a bullet point feature instead of a useful feature.
Windows responds fast to the user, usually. Scrolling is fast, opening apps is fast. That's sweet. One window doesn't hold up another window. The Finder by contrast is soooo 1992 in its current state. The dock has similar issues. Basically IO handling on different and high latency media sucks on OS X and apps block on it. Windows handles it well by caching everything. Refreshing on Windows is dumb though, but that's the price you pay I guess.
window widgets: 9 had em pretty straight. X and Win have 'em so wrong it's not worth arguing about. The not saved icon with X is nice, Be did it better I believe. What about the difference between closing a window vs killing an app? Not shown. Kill button next to other non kill functionality? yuck. A toggle button indicating noxt state instead of current state in windows min/max button? A horrid and now ubiquitous computer convention.
Here's the nail in the coffin for me though, and why Windows infuriates me daily: dialogue boxes with meaningless drivel, modal OK's, yes/no answers to questions that don't have yes/no answers, negatively worded questions, and inane pestering about things when I'm just trying to work! "It looks like you're creating a list..." Yes I am, and if I wanted your help I'd ask for it, go away! Mac OS X doesn't do as much for me as I'd like sometimes, but I'd much rather it stayed out of my way and let/made me work than got in my face while helping me to / keeping me from working. That's just me perhaps.
And I won't say what I do, because I feel that if I speak the truth, the words will stand on their own merit. If not, all the better I didn't try and pimp them.
The sheets thing, sweet in their association, bad in their flexibility. I think each sheet should have an "invisify" button on it so that you can see below it. Or maybe a detach button so you can make it float once you need it to.
Dock grouping: I simply don't minimize windows, but what if the windows hid under the app in the dock, and popped out on mouse-over like the name does so you could go straight to your window with mini icon, but it remained grouped to your app? ... Yeah, the dock doesn't scale very well.
That grouping thing in XP ... neat. But I'm not sold on its time saving functionality. It seems like a bullet point feature instead of a useful feature.
Windows responds fast to the user, usually. Scrolling is fast, opening apps is fast. That's sweet. One window doesn't hold up another window. The Finder by contrast is soooo 1992 in its current state. The dock has similar issues. Basically IO handling on different and high latency media sucks on OS X and apps block on it. Windows handles it well by caching everything. Refreshing on Windows is dumb though, but that's the price you pay I guess.
window widgets: 9 had em pretty straight. X and Win have 'em so wrong it's not worth arguing about. The not saved icon with X is nice, Be did it better I believe. What about the difference between closing a window vs killing an app? Not shown. Kill button next to other non kill functionality? yuck. A toggle button indicating noxt state instead of current state in windows min/max button? A horrid and now ubiquitous computer convention.
Here's the nail in the coffin for me though, and why Windows infuriates me daily: dialogue boxes with meaningless drivel, modal OK's, yes/no answers to questions that don't have yes/no answers, negatively worded questions, and inane pestering about things when I'm just trying to work! "It looks like you're creating a list..." Yes I am, and if I wanted your help I'd ask for it, go away! Mac OS X doesn't do as much for me as I'd like sometimes, but I'd much rather it stayed out of my way and let/made me work than got in my face while helping me to / keeping me from working. That's just me perhaps.
And I won't say what I do, because I feel that if I speak the truth, the words will stand on their own merit. If not, all the better I didn't try and pimp them.
Hypernate
McGeek
Even easier way of moving stuff without even having to go into preferences or customization boxes is to just command + drag it on the toolbar as it usually would be. i.e. as in the pic (imagine my mouse cursor on it
~*~
Also, what REALLY annoys me in Internet Explorer, and indeed in many other apps on the Mac platform (OS 9 and X) is that when I am typing and the text moves past the bottom of the screen, it doesn't automatically scroll down, allowing me to see the rest of what I'm typing without me having to take my hands off the keyboard.
This is also a major issue in Finder, as in list view, when I click the triangle to expand a folder, if it continues, or opens completely past the bottom of the window, it doesn't scroll down allowing me to see the contents.
Windows does all of this for me.
Attachments
I Notice a LOT of you have Problems, Or queries with the Windows Taskbar grouping?! Thats fair, i can see how it might even be considered annoying, that it may seem to be doing TOO much tidying, that it slows you up.
However, i was JUST reading my emails on my iBook...
I loaded mail, and in my Junk mail box, was 5 forum replies, i looked @ the title's and thought, yeah i'll check those, later! So i went to delete them, i usually just hit Apple + A to select all the mail in the folder, then hit Backspace to trash it. Now, as i went to hit backspace, i accidently hit ENTER. Now, you can guess what this did, opened ALL 5 mails up. Fair enough it was MY fault, i had pressed the wrong key, i accept that. You may now have an idea where i am getting to now...
With XP, it would and does group the mail, and so if i DID make an error, i could just right click the group...
With X, whats the Alternative?!
I am certain, i didn't want to open all those windows, and it could, if i had not been so economical, had led to a LOT of mail open, and i'd of been forced to close the app.
Now, isn't this M$ feature actually kinda cool?! It Serves MORE than the obvious purpose, and does something i'd like the dock to be able to replicate. (not only with grouping) but with options like so.
Neyo
However, i was JUST reading my emails on my iBook...
I loaded mail, and in my Junk mail box, was 5 forum replies, i looked @ the title's and thought, yeah i'll check those, later! So i went to delete them, i usually just hit Apple + A to select all the mail in the folder, then hit Backspace to trash it. Now, as i went to hit backspace, i accidently hit ENTER. Now, you can guess what this did, opened ALL 5 mails up. Fair enough it was MY fault, i had pressed the wrong key, i accept that. You may now have an idea where i am getting to now...
With XP, it would and does group the mail, and so if i DID make an error, i could just right click the group...
With X, whats the Alternative?!
I am certain, i didn't want to open all those windows, and it could, if i had not been so economical, had led to a LOT of mail open, and i'd of been forced to close the app.
Now, isn't this M$ feature actually kinda cool?! It Serves MORE than the obvious purpose, and does something i'd like the dock to be able to replicate. (not only with grouping) but with options like so.
Neyo
bbloke
Registered
In case anyone was unclear about the "grouping" of windows from an application under Windows XP, here is a screenshot from my machine in the office to demonstrate the effect. (Excuse the very low quality of the image)
NeYo has also pointed out the "minimize group" and "close groups" and there have been other attachments showing the grouping of volumes, for example, so I think grouping takes several forms in total.
Oh, NeYo, can you use "option-click" on the close button to close all the message windows, or would it close the mailbox window too? I'm guessing it would do the latter.
NeYo has also pointed out the "minimize group" and "close groups" and there have been other attachments showing the grouping of volumes, for example, so I think grouping takes several forms in total.
Oh, NeYo, can you use "option-click" on the close button to close all the message windows, or would it close the mailbox window too? I'm guessing it would do the latter.
Originally posted by MacLuv
I think NeYo is totally kicking me in the ass... this is a good thing.
All I can say is, with visual examples, it's hard to debate the man... I only hope Apple is watching as well, 'cause I'm really getting envious.
I'd have to say the features of XP i'm digging right now are this little tidy up feature and the album cover download...
HAHA! Well, like i said, i feel natively, a Windows user, and so, my views and such kinda differ a lot, to many or the majority of you guys around here. Hey, i am not trying to wash you all into a Windows world, hey, i am on the way out myself, but its not about that, right?
...I remember reading not so long ago, about Multi Desktop setups, on one machine, and how they'd like to see it implemented in X. I agree, it'd be cool, often when i am working, i spread my time over a couple or more desktops, using the XP Built in multi desktop thing. MacLuv, i don't know if you know of this at all?
Well, here's a shot, Four Desktops, note that you can run different apps, in each instance, and change with a simple click of one button (above the clock) in the taskbar. This is great for say, working, maybe browsing, chatting? Or maybe you want to run four Apps full screen, and not have to switch over, minimize and such. You can just flip to desktop 2 or 3 etc. You could span this more so, by even using Win+L, and switching users, thats the feature i probably love most about XP, i wish X had that!
anyhow, here's Multi Desktop for all you who maybe never saw it?!
i apologise if it appears i hitchhiked and took the thread off a little, but its cool, right?
Neyo