Which browser do you use for primary?

Which web browser do you use for primary?

  • Internet Explorer 5.2

  • Mozilla 1.x

  • Netscape 6.x/7 PR

  • Chimera 0.x

  • iCab

  • OmniWeb 4.x

  • Others (please specify)


Results are only viewable after voting.
Originally posted by azosx
googolplex,

I want to know how though. I want to know how by running Mozilla in OS X, I support AOL?
Okay I'm going back on my word here, but I won't intentionally interject ANY humor or sarcasm what-so-ever into this post.

<seriousness>

If I understand the situation correctly:

Netscape is basically AOL's bastard-child with Mozilla. By using Mozilla, you are supporting the Mozilla project which includes Netscape. Therefore, in a non-direct nature, you are supporting AOL.

</seriousness>
 
Originally posted by googolplex
Right, but you also support web standards and help get rid of IE's dominance in the market.

You've just got to support what sucks the least these days. :)
 
thank you Fryke, googolplex, macko and all for simply acknowledging my reasoning. i also see your points as well. I have a hard time finding an absolute right or wrong in this issue. there are simply a few different points of view. The best thing is when we present them all rationally and let others make their choice of which philosophy suits them. just as republicans, democrats and other political parties state their positions and then people choose which to support. (sorry, not trying to be americentric here, i only know US political parties).

funny how i got this all rolling again with little melodramtic vignette back there.:D

azosx - if you don't understand how aol profits from netscape, then you've got a lot more looking around and learning to do yourself. I assure you that aol doesn't support mozilla nor develop netscape out of the kindness and generosity of its heart.

aol has already switched to netscape as default browser and netscape 7 preview is available. i assure you they are moving full speed ahead in the browser wars.
 
I understand fully well how AOL profits by me using Netscape. I am directed to their website, portals, shopping, other software, AIM and everything else but how am I supporting AOL by using Mozilla?

Nothing concerning AOL exists in Mozilla. I don't even have the option to file a bug report with the OS X version of Mozilla so how by using it am I really helping anybody unless I go out of my way to file bug reports online?

Bastard child? That's the same as saying Galeon, Chimera and the dozen other choices using Mozilla technology are bastard children as well. It's unfortunate you can't just pick and choose who you support and who you don't. You base something as trivial as funding to alienate yourself from not just Mozilla, but dozens of other fine applications and potentially cause others to do the same by misinforming them.

You said you have a child. I'm gussing he's still in school. Did Windows happen to furnish all the OS's and Office apps he happens to learn on from day to day. By sending him to school, are you not indirectly supporting MS and their dominance in the computer market. Possibly that doesn't apply to you, but it does to many. Should parents yank their children out of school just because MS supports them?

I only use examples like the one above and MS's relationship with Apple because they are essentially they are similiar to the problem you have with Mozilla. Yet you support Apple and I'm gussing education so the line you've drawn is very fuzzy.

With Mozilla you have a choice, you can furnish a bug report via the Feedback Agent or online or not. By using Mozilla you're only taking away from AOL/Netscape's market share. An the reason Netscape uses older builds of Mozilla and takes so long to get their version to the market is because they totally rework it to fit their needs, thus I can understand why you hate them, it's a commercial marketing vessle disguised as a web browser.

Mozilla doesn't work for just one person, AOL, it's trying to work for everyone, and it can only work for everyone if you decide to work for it. If not, then it's just a good browser you've decided to use, no strings attached.

Those 1000s of people didn't work their asses off for 4 1/2 years so AOL could have a web browser. They worked so hard so you could have a choice.
 
I post this question to anybody. How by downloading and using Mozilla are you directly or indirectly supporting AOL. I want to understand. Maybe I'm missing something.
 
ok, a quick set of replies and then i think i'll go hiking in the redwoods with my son -

Originally posted by azosx
I understand fully well how AOL profits by me using Netscape. I am directed to their website, portals, shopping, other software, AIM and everything else but how am I supporting AOL by using Mozilla?

Nothing concerning AOL exists in Mozilla. I don't even have the option to file a bug report with the OS X version of Mozilla so how by using it am I really helping anybody unless I go out of my way to file bug reports online?

correct (unless you count aol's money in the mozilla team's pockets :D )but the point is that mozilla exists within a concern of aol. as for current ability to file bug reports, i concede ignorance since i haven't allowed mozilla on my HD for quite some time.
Bastard child? That's the same as saying Galeon, Chimera and the dozen other choices using Mozilla technology are bastard children as well. It's unfortunate you can't just pick and choose who you support and who you don't. You base something as trivial as funding to alienate yourself from not just Mozilla, but dozens of other fine applications and potentially cause others to do the same by misinforming them.

as trivial as funding? my friend, money is power. and aol is exercising theirs with their relationship to mozilla. as for the others, i've said it before and i'll repeat - those are the ones we should be supporting. It is time for the children to eat their father, just as the ancient Gods, under the leadership of Zeus, ate their father Cronos. (seems like a fitting analogy given the ancient mythological names of these browsers.)

and i do pick and choose who i will support. all i've ever done is outline my criteria for doing so.

You said you have a child. I'm gussing he's still in school. Did Windows happen to furnish all the OS's and Office apps he happens to learn on from day to day. By sending him to school, are you not indirectly supporting MS and their dominance in the computer market. Possibly that doesn't apply to you, but it does to many. Should parents yank their children out of school just because MS supports them?

I only use examples like the one above and MS's relationship with Apple because they are essentially they are similiar to the problem you have with Mozilla. Yet you support Apple and I'm gussing education so the line you've drawn is very fuzzy.

reallywant me to add my rant about the current domination of m$ and pc's to this thread? Let's just say that if i had the money (power) to do so, my son's school would be all macs. as it is, he has to settle for an old performa at home running os 7.5.x.

as for apple's relationship with m$, i've not been happy with it for many years and would love to see them seperate them selves from each other if there was a way to do it that assured apple would survive. as it is, i rationalize that this is money and support that m$ owes to apple for stealing from them in the first place. it's not the perfect logic i know, but that's where i draw my fuzzy line.

With Mozilla you have a choice, you can furnish a bug report via the Feedback Agent or online or not. By using Mozilla you're only taking away from AOL/Netscape's market share. An the reason Netscape uses older builds of Mozilla and takes so long to get their version to the market is because they totally rework it to fit their needs, thus I can understand why you hate them, it's a commercial marketing vessle disguised as a web browser.

Mozilla doesn't work for just one person, AOL, it's trying to work for everyone, and it can only work for everyone if you decide to work for it. If not, then it's just a good browser you've decided to use, no strings attached.

Those 1000s of people didn't work their asses off for 4 1/2 years so AOL could have a web browser. They worked so hard so you could have a choice.

my feeling is that when netscape sold out to aol, those thousands of developers got sold out in the process. the only real way to make sense of this is to now support those independent projects that have grown out of mozilla and lead them to faster success. take what was good about mozilla and make it better. but do so in ways that protect it from semi-monopolies like aol. that's all.

now is the time to support those choices. they are no longer little playthings, they are full fledged browsers in their own right and need our support and participation to grow into the things we complain they aren't. those who are not willing to make the sacrifices involved are only adding to the chance that we will never see the benefits they could one day provide.:)
 
as trivial as funding? my friend, money is power. and aol is exercising theirs with their relationship to mozilla.

This is where FUD, Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt sets in. You think Mozilla is in AOL's back pocket because AOL chooses to support them finacially but you have no idea if that is actually true or not.

You'll continue to tell everybody this though despite every point made on mozilla.org refuting your claims.

You said you once used Netscape and so did I. I loved Netscape, it gave us a choice. But Netscape was Big Business as well, and like every big business, they were in it for a profit. They had to sell to AOL because they just weren't big enough to take on MS. That was devistating to me, and for a time MS was my only alternative. I didn't mind IE, it did what I needed it to, but I would have much rather been supporting anybody but them.

Netscape did one thing though to insure it's legacy before the merger and before AOL could kill it. It created the Mozilla Open Source Initiative. Something to not only combat the corruptness of Big Businesses like MS, but AOL as well. If they hadn't have done this, Netscape might very well be proprietary today, and then what choices might you have?

This is what Mozilla is today, what Netscape once was. The Netscape we remember before AOL made it "evil." If you look at Mozilla in any way, look at it as the final coup de grace from Netscape to AOL and Big Business in general. A slap in the face that not even AOL has the power to destroy.

Like mozilla.org says, Mozilla was bigger than Netscape, Mozilla is bigger than AOL. AOL had no choice but to support Mozilla. Basically, they were damned if they did and damned if they didn't.

Don't you honestly believe AOL would rather have a proprietary browser like IE that it could control? Unfortuantely, before the merger, Netscape gave them no other alternative with Mozilla.

Now because of Mozilla, something AOL doesn't have the power to kill, they have to compete with Mozilla itself, Chimera, Galeon and the many others.

Mozilla is Netscape's legacy, and has more power than AOL or any Big Business. If you truly believed in what Netscape was, then you should whole heartedly support Mozilla.
 
I hope everyone knows Mozilla.org is a totally seperate entity with people not at netscape on their staff. The head of the Mozilla project was actually fired by AOL but is still the head of the project. If AOL really had all the controll that person wouldn't be there anymore.

All AOL provides is servers and some Netscape engineers who work on it.
 
azosx - you say FUD like it was some dirty word. Frankly i think not having a little fear, uncertainity and doubt about things is much scarier and much worse. apathy is the disease of our times. when we use our FUD's to inform us, then we can work to make sure they don't become realities. That has been one of my basic points from the start. We could have used a little more FUD when IBM was climbing to power in the 60's. Whenever anyone starts getting very powerful, you had better exercise some FUD or risk living in a world not of your choosing.

so what is your point in insisting upon supporting mozilla rather than the other browsers it has spawned? you keep listing how great they are and i keep agreeing and you go back to defending mozilla like you're the guy that develops it.

and you keep inisisting that aol's funding in no way influences mozilla? do you have any proof of that? I'm not trying to say aol controls mozilla, but let's be real for a sec. If i tell you i'm getting money from a source but that they don't influence me, would you just take my word for it? i doubt it. and if you did, you would probably be mistaken. cause money talks and people naturally listen.

now, off to the redwoods.:D
 
FUD can be a dirty word because 9 out of 10 times, the claims that arise from FUD are unsubstantiated.

I guess it all boils down to paranoia.

This debate has lightened up which is good, I think we are both learning something.

My point in supporting Mozilla, is that if you don't, there will be no other browsers spawned from it's efforts. If users hadn't seen Mozilla through to 1.0, Chimera and Galeon would have had little reason to continue. They didn't and still don't have the user base yet to support them on their own or the developers to fix the various bugs and issues Mozilla was plauged with.

People need to realize this is the future, this is what will keep us free and most of all, this is the only way we'll have a choice against Big Business.

Yes, OmniWeb, iCab, lynx and various others will be an option, but let's face it, they are not going to free us from the bonds that MS and AOL have imposed on us.

AOL would just as soon see Mozilla dead and Netscape proprietary once again. This is unfortunately not an option so the only way AOL saw it is, if you can't beat'em, join'em.

Do you think with the money AOL has, they needed to develop a browser from Open Source? They could give a s*it about Open Source. The fact is, they had no other choice but to support it. It would seem that they became the willing pawn of Netscape and Mozilla after the merger. You keep your friends close and your enemies even closer. :)

Like I said before, Mozilla is Netscape's legacy and the final coup de grace to Big Business before Netscape had to bow out and AOL nearly destroyed them.

Other than money, they certainly did nothing to support Mozilla in the begining, letting Netscape die completely at first then releasing a terribly buggy version of Netscape 6 and calling it complete. It would almost seem by doing that, they wanted Mozilla to seem like a faliure.

There is no way you can positively determin whether money is an influencing factor or not, but the way Mozilla has operated pre and post AOL, there is no indication that it is. Absolutely nothing has changed, their mission is still the same, which leads me to believe no influence has been exerted.

One other benefit of Mozilla is that it is not centralized. There is no one determining factor on where the project should head. It's a colabrative effort by 1000s of people. Influencing such an organization with money would be next to impossible. These people would never develop Mozilla for AOL, they develop it for people like you, who want to remain free and have a choice. Even when you don't appriciate their efforts.
 
Burn him ! Aaaaaaah ! A fudging Netscape user ! Clicking on (aaaaaaaaaa) AAAAAAAAOOOOOOLLLLLLL things ! Baaaah !

Support Mozilla = giving fuel to the gecko pump / and the gecko is also Netscape. So yes, helping the gecko to exist through Moz. is helping the gecko to exist anywhere else, Netscape included.

But Chimera is very good :D and you don't need all these stupid functions you have on Netscape/IE/Moz/etc

E-mail: use Mail (Apple)
Upload: use OsXigen (Version tracker)
Download: use OsXigen or Speed Download (Version Tracker)
Flash: okay... one point for you
Compose HTML: use Wallaby (www.darkeagle.com)

But still, don't forget we should burn JetOsX before :D :D :D yeah ! Burn ! Burn !
 
There's one problem in your logic, Ed, about supporting the children (so they'll eat the father), and it's called open source. Galeon, Chimera and others are doing a good job in taking Gecko, improving it on the way and putting a nice interface around it. But their development of the Gecko engine flows back to the open source mozilla project. Thus helping the children is still helping mozilla and thus Netscape (AOL).

Until now, AOL has chosen the default interface (the XUL one) for Netscape. What if they start a (good) development of interfaces for various platforms themselves? Why do we choose Galeon over mozilla on Linux? Because it's a far better and faster interface for the browser, because it integrates with the operating system (if you use Gnome at least). The same is happening with Chimera (if the interface becomes better fast). But what if AOL decides to put some money behind the Netscape project? They could have a _good_ Netscape 8 for Windows and Mac OS X up in no time. And people like me, who tend to choose function over politics, might make the jump to Netscape again. Seeing how Apple starts to have a good relationship with Beast No. 2 (AOL support in AirPort, iChat using the AIM network, Apple letting go of IE as the default browser in ads and the like), I fear that Apple might *really* - with AOLs support - develop THE Mac OS X browser, based on mozilla *for* AOL. There might be money flowing from AOL to Apple for Apple's support of what AOL wants to happen on the platform or not: If the result is a nice looking, fast, easy to handle web browser that comes standard on every installation of Mac OS X, people will use THAT. There was much talk about how the integration of IE in Windows wouldn't really hurt Netscape, but we know what happened: IE won. Big time. There's not only bad things about this (!), as the browsing experience on a Windows machine (comparing Windows 95 with Netscape to Windows XP with IE 6) has improved a thousand fold. And I guess a good Apple web browser based on mozilla, which is already good in standards compliance, would also improve the web experience of Mac OS X. And _that_ would actually be a good thing functionality-wise. A very bad thing, of course, politically.

This sums up to a pretty scary picture, doesn't it? Scary for Ed, anyway. I tend to see the picture as half good, half bad. I, too, don't want AOL to be the Microsoft of the 21st century, but I want Apple and Mac OS X to succeed. And if Apple plays their cards right, they're never going to be dependent on AOL, as mozilla at least is open source.
 
There's one problem in your logic, Ed, about supporting the children (so they'll eat the father), and it's called open source. Galeon, Chimera and others are doing a good job in taking Gecko, improving it on the way and putting a nice interface around it. But their development of the Gecko engine flows back to the open source mozilla project. Thus helping the children is still helping mozilla and thus Netscape (AOL).

You're confused. Galeon and Chimera don't develop the gecko rendering engine, they only build their browsers from it. Now in the case of Chimera, it has branched from the Mozilla development tree, but the chances of Netscape/AOL using their developments seeds to build Netscape are are next to none.

While it is possible developers within these seperate projects work for Mozilla, which I think is the case for Chimera, these platforms aren't used to improve Mozilla in anyway by supporting them.
The seperate branch for Chimera is used for directly supporting just it though.

Thus, by using Chimera, Galeon or any of the other Open Source projects based on Mozilla, you're definitely not going to be helping AOL.

Apple is only using iChat to hopefully expand it's user base. Apple is also trying it's darndess to get away from MS and it's services. Realize though it dare not defy MS, because if MS pulled Office from OS X, Apple would be screwed. With all the trouble MS is in right now, it would be difficult for them to do that though. I think Apple is using this oppourtunity to lessen their dependence on MS, while MS can't do anything about it.

If Netscape made an Aquafied version of it's browser for OS X and it was slightly faster than Mozilla, I still probably wouldn't use it. The beauty of Mozilla is that it comes with no strings attached. When I start it my bookmarks don't tell me to go shopping or to AOL/Timer Warner related websites, a web commerce site doesn't load up as default and I have control over what I choose to view on the net. I can also choose whether I want to support it or not.

Unfortunately, this wouldn't be the case for all. Many would take visual enhancements over performance or politics any day.

If Mozilla ever started making a totally inferior product to lets say MS or AOL, I wouldn't torture myself just to keep using it.

IE is pretty and starts faster than Mozilla but without tabs, a location bar, inability to load pages as fast or correctly, no way to block popup adds, lack of a email client, lack of web standards and dozens of other features, it's just too unproductive for me.

When you start getting used to the subtle but extemely useful features of Mozilla, you don't know how you ever did without them.

**This was only my little chant for Mozilla because I know you're and IE user** :)

Apple doesn't need Netscape either to build a terrific browser. That's the beauty of Open Source. Apple certainly has the resources to use the Mozilla code and do it on it's own. iBrowse or whatever would certainly complete their collection of iApps.

Ed has chose to hand pick which Big Businesses he supports and doesn't. This makes his stance against AOL/Netscape and Mozilla very confusing.

I think if AOL or MS itself bought Apple, Ed would still support it. He only yanks support if he has a choice. Kind of a double standard.
 
You'd be suprised what Chimera might turn into, especially considering the number of Netscape engineers working on the project.

Thats all I'm going to say ;)
 
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